Rest as a Strategy: The New Playbook for Leaders in 2026

[00:00:00] Hannah, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for joining me.

[00:00:04] Thanks, Lauren. It’s great to be here.

[00:00:06] It’s so good to see you. Obviously we were connected by, uh, a lady that we both know within the industry and then we even caught up recently when you made your trip to New York. So yeah, it’s really nice to chat again. Hannah. I’m really. Excited for this conversation just because I think it is so topical for sales. Um, it is a tough industry at times. Um, and boundaries and protection of wellbeing has to be at the forefront. So I know that you’re gonna impart some amazing knowledge to our listeners, so. I obviously talked through your bio, Hannah, and you’ve had an incredible career. Um, you’ve scaled sales teams in New York, so we had a lot in common.

[00:00:50] You then moved West Coast and you continued that trajectory in San Francisco, and then now you are the founder of, I Am pausing. And so I wondered, let’s go back to your sales time. Um. You know, it is high growth. It is high pressure. What would you say your relationship was like with that hustle culture?

[00:01:12] Personally, I hate that terminology, but we’re gonna start there. And I guess the spinoff to that, Hannah, is when did you first realize that maybe this constant Persian, your drive really started to take a toll on you?

[00:01:27] Mm.

[00:01:28] Mm,

[00:01:28] Yeah, good question. I think when I was in New York, um, working in sales, leading sales teams back then, this was 15, 10 years ago, and back then Hustle was not such a. Um, emotive word as it is now. It was much more glorified and glorified. We’re hustling, we’re hustlers, and I definitely considered myself one, um, because I absolutely loved it.

[00:02:02] You know, I had not even lived in a large city before. I’d come from Brighton on the south coast of the uk. Landed slap bang in the middle of Manhattan. Um. Working with big brands, with ad agencies. There was lots of dinners and drinks and networking and pictures and flying across the country, uh, to Atlanta, to California, to all these places to meet with clients, and it was so exciting.

[00:02:35] So at the time I would’ve said, I’m hustling. This is great. I absolutely love it. And it was successful to a point. So the reality of what was going on behind the scenes there was, that was all very fun On the personal side of things, I was also, you know, in my mid twenties in New York having lots of fun and um, until it wasn’t very fun.

[00:03:02] And one day I arrived in the office and just kind of. Burst into tears and I did not know why. Rush to the bathrooms sort myself out. Come on, Hannah, pull yourself together. Um, and I could not. So I went home and that was my first real experience of what’s now labeled as a burnout. You know, burnouts can look very different.

[00:03:30] This was emotional. Um, and this was because I was. Putting my 150% into absolutely everything and taking no time to pause. Um, and that turned into me taking a break. I went on a three month sabbatical, um, from work. I went to Southeast Asia, typical, eat, pray, love, sort of find myself, uh, had an amazing CEO and founder at the time, Charles Palmer from Brandwatch and.

[00:04:03] He, after that break, I came back and I went to San Francisco and OP helped to open the office there and sort of did it all over again. But ultimately, responding to your question and reflecting on hustle, um, I think things have changed a little bit. We, we now have a little bit of a better understanding that when always on expectations of revenue leaders of.

[00:04:33] Salespeople is not realistic, and it will lead to that. They’ll get great results for a stint of time, and then they will flop whether like me, it was emotional, whether it’s physical. Um, it can show up in many different ways, but it’s not sustainable.

[00:04:51] Thank you for sharing that, Hannah. ’cause it. It’s such an honest story, isn’t it? And being really vulnerable to like what happened to you. Because I think what can happen with burnout, especially in sales and and revenue generating roles, is we work at such pace that sometimes maybe you don’t even know. That you are displaying burnout symptoms. ’cause as you say, you’re flying around the country, you’re meeting clients, you are available always on, you are networking, you’re going to dinners and it will creep up on you. I think that you are right in the sense that it’s really good that we are now talking about these topics. I mean, I, I was. Funnily enough mentioning it to, to my mum’s fiance and he’s very old school, a matter of fact going, oh, come on. You know, brush yourself up and move on. And now people are actually trying to yeah, place wellness front and center and, and recognize these symptoms much earlier because I do think the rat race is real.

[00:05:54] I think in somewhere like in New York and San Francisco and London probably, it’s certainly. Heightened. Um, there’s a bit of a competition to it, I feel sometimes. Oh yeah, I, I work until midnight and then I’m up at 5:00 AM going to the gym. I’m thinking, how on earth is that sustainable? So that’s kind of leads me onto my next topic is all about like sustainable performance and, and you talk about that a lot. Um. About how to manage your energy, not just about effort. And I think in sales that’s huge because performance is everything. We’ve got numbers, we’ve got targets. There’s constant momentum, constantly moving forward, thinking ahead, so. Considering the audience, I guess, how can sales professionals really start to reframe what productivity looks like, but make sure that maybe we don’t have to take these three months sabbaticals whilst they’re amazing.

[00:06:51] I also did the same. We don’t feel that that is the only way that we can rest. How can they place rest and wellbeing as a central part of performance?

[00:07:02] Yeah.

[00:07:03] I, it’s. It. So there’s a few things. First, the most simple and the biggest mistake that most salespeople make is doing more does not equal better results. We see this all the time. I’ll just throw as much at the wall as I can see what sticks. Um. And it’s not their fault because a lot of sales leaders are measuring activities rather than measuring results and me measuring, you know, um, looking at other ways to measure success.

[00:07:41] Um, so more activities does not equal more sales. It’s really am I focusing on what matters? How can I focus on what matters? Quality over quantity, um, and. That is a skill that some people have innate and some people need to learn. And so when we do trainings, we cover quite basic things to some, but to others new like time management, the COVID matrix.

[00:08:15] You know, what’s urgent and what’s important, and how do we separate those out, and how do we plan our day? Because otherwise we’re gonna come to the end of the day, the quarter, the month, and be hustling, right? Be burning ourselves into the ground. So, um, first of all, that time, time management of your day and your week, making sure that you’ve got boundaries.

[00:08:41] And you’re taking time to do what gives you energy, um, because it is a lot of energy out sales. Um, it’s a people skill and, um, so making sure that you are, you know, whether that’s running or going to the gym or just, uh, reading, relaxing, getting a massage, all of these things, um, are really essential.

[00:09:11] And I think, would you agree? I think a lot of people in sales would say that they’re quite goal orientated, you know? We’ve got goals, we’ve got big numbers, and we try and strive towards them. One of the things that I’ve started working on with my coach is setting yourself goals for the week. And I love that you talk about time management techniques because it’s, we talk about them, but you have to practice them.

[00:09:35] And every single week your time management matrix will change. Your urgent and important is gonna completely change. But I think where I’d love to see people looking at time management even more is. Not just your goals for work, but also your personal goals. You just touched on things like fitness there. One of the things my coach makes me do is write down what are my personal goals for the week? And that could simply mean I wanna get eight hours sleep a night. I wanna get to the gym four times a week, and I wanna get a massage literally, and she will hold me accountable to check off. Did I complete my. Professional goals fine. But also did you get to the gym four times? ’cause if you didn’t, you’re actually not prioritizing something that is really important for your peak performance. Um, but it is hard, isn’t it? It it’s really hard. What would you say works works for you from an accountability and how you organize your day?

[00:10:36] Yeah. Before I touch on that, there’s something really interesting about what you’re sharing here, which is talking about goals and to understand. Success in reaching a goal. We need to understand dopamine and the brain and how it works because dopamine

[00:10:55] spikes in the chase, not the reward. So what this means is our brains, especially if we work in sales, we’re addicted to the chase.

[00:11:06] And I’m sure you’ve felt that before, right? Where you land this massive deal

[00:11:10] and

[00:11:11] it’s like, yes, celebrate, let’s go for a drink. And then immediately, or whatever it is that you do to celebrate, um, immediately what’s next? What’s the, what’s the next one? And we don’t

[00:11:25] let ourselves enjoy. And really revel in that achievement because it’s, it’s the chase.

[00:11:34] It’s the chase that gives us the dopamine. And while that is very effective for salespeople, it’s also quite dangerous. Um, because if we don’t pause, like you say, if we don’t prioritize. Our personal, I don’t, I’ve, I’ve said this before, I don’t believe that we have a work life and a personal life. We only have one life, but, um, the things that we enjoy outside of work, if we don’t make time for them and make time for our own wellbeing, then we won’t be able to go back and do that chase.

[00:12:06] Um,

[00:12:07] Um,

[00:12:08] and, and that’s what leads to burnout.

[00:12:09] burnout. And something that I remember, Hannah, when we were talking as well, um, when we met in person was about. Rest. So you’ve just mentioned the chase, but also you have to recoup before you’re ready to do the next. Chase and rest takes so many different forms and we’ve openly shared potential neurodiverse tend tendencies.

[00:12:36] I definitely feel that I’m undiagnosed a DHD, so my rest. Actually looks very different to some of my friends. My best friend was winding me up this morning in WhatsApp where I was talking her through my day. She was like, my gosh, your day sounds exhausting to me. I said to her, it’s so funny. ’cause to me, I feel really energized by my day.

[00:12:57] It doesn’t feel draining in any way. I’m doing all the things that light me up and really are something that is I’m passionate about. Can you share a little bit, because salespeople I think are quite unique in that we are quite. We have to be very driven and determined and disciplined, so rest might take a different shape for us.

[00:13:17] Could you maybe talk through what rest looks like?

[00:13:21] Yeah, so there’s a big misunderstanding. About how to rest, and I was guilty of this. I did not know how to rest. I thought resting was vegging on the sofa in front of Netflix, sort of collapsing or sleep, and that is how I would rest. But actually because. I went through this cycle of burnout so many times it led me to study rest.

[00:13:50] So I have studied rest over the last five years, and what I have learned is that there are seven types of rest that we need. In general as humans. And like, like you say, there’ll be different personal preferences for everyone. Um, but the seven forms of rest and, um, Saundra Dalton-Smith wrote a book about this.

[00:14:11] You can look it up. Um, but there’s everything from mental, rest, creative, rest, social, rest. Um, for example, social rest is a really interesting one. Um. Because it can be sometimes we, when I’m most tired, that’s when I cancel my plans. That dinner plan that I’ve got tonight, no, I’m too exhausted. I’m not gonna go.

[00:14:36] I am gonna lie on the sofa. Um, and you do that and you catch up on sleep. You have more sleep, but you still feel tired. So sometimes actually what we need is social rest means. Socializing in the right environments with the right people who are gonna give us energy and light us up. Um, I had a great example of this last week.

[00:14:58] I was in the Atlas Mountains in Morocco with 25 other founders. Uh, a founders retreat. And I was getting very little sleep. I was also, um, not skipping the wine at dinner, and I measure everything on this aura ring and heart rate variability is an amazing metric to measure. The nervous system and stress and wellbeing in general and my heart rate variability was the best that it has been in a very long time.

[00:15:29] Even though I was not getting the sleep, I was in a new environment. I was drinking wine. Why was that? That was because I had this feeling of connection, this feeling of being seen and understood, um, which we are pack animals, we need that and sometimes we forget it and rest can be quite isolating in our modern Western culture.

[00:15:55] Um, so, but it goes both ways. So if. You are quite introverted or even like myself sometimes I actually do need to be alone to recharge my batteries. So really rest is about checking in with your body. Your mind and your soul, or your spirit, or your wellbeing, whatever you wanna call it. We are not just our minds, we are made up of more than that, and we need to learn to check in with that.

[00:16:29] And what do I need right now? Do I need to get out in nature? Go on a hike. That’s a really good way to get creative, rest and feel inspired rather than forcing yourself to sit at the desk. Um, so yeah, there’s, it’s, uh, I could talk, there’s a whole workshop that we deliver on this. Um, but yeah, the seven forms of rest have been life changing for me.

[00:16:50] That’s amazing. If anyone’s listening and is interested in that workshop, do reach out to Hannah ’cause she does some amazing work. It’s really reshaped how I think about rest, but also I think it really helps with comparison with each other. ’cause I think it’s very easy to compare and a lot of my friends will sometimes say to me, you need to rest. You need to relax and just watch tv. Actually, that doesn’t, as you say, um, make me feel. Better. And I think the connection element, I am a absolute extrovert. I get connection and energy from people, but make sure it’s the right type of connection and environment and that everything that you do is not just centered around your job. You know, make sure that you have an identity outside of that too. Um, so yeah, appreciate you sharing that. Um, that book that you highlighted, I’ll put in the notes at the end as well. As you were talking, Hannah, it made me think about. Um, where does the responsibility lie? Uh, you know, should, should this wellbeing and rest conversation, should this totally be on the individual?

[00:17:55] Or do you think that organizations should be accountable for creating those healthier environments? So, I don’t know if you have any examples, maybe from your experience, like what does, what does company culture that truly supports wellbeing look like, especially in a fast-paced sales environment.

[00:18:15] Yeah. Um, it’s absolutely not just the responsibility of the individual. There is a lot that workplaces can do from a culture and um, wellbeing standpoint. Um, and there’s small things. From how as a, as a leader, whether you’re a sales leader or whatever, whatever kind of leader you are in the organization, what is the behavior that you are modeling?

[00:18:41] Because that is what you are setting the bar of like, this is what I expect. This is what in this team. So if you are sending WhatsApp messages to the team at 9:00 PM in the evening or on a weekend. This is what they feel they need to do in response. Whereas, you know that that is not, um, you know, that is what we talked about before.

[00:19:11] Hustle, hustle, culture. It’s not sustainable. So modeling the behavior that you want to see, taking the holidays in the states, you know, that is, uh, taking the holidays, taking the time off. Um, and yeah, modeling that behavior I think is so important. Um, ’cause it gives people permission and not just when things are good either.

[00:19:37] So we all have struggles in life, whether that be with our physical health, our mental health, um, things happen. And when that happens to you choosing vulnerability, choosing to share. To, you know, as much as feels appropriate within the given context. Um, but yeah, that’s, that’s super important. And then of course, there’s, um, a lot that can be done on a company level.

[00:20:07] So, um, we have a course called Recharge, which, um. We’re working with a big bank at the moment, and this is a course for teams, so a team of up to 25 people can go through this course, and it is six weeks. And during these six weeks with your team, you’re really getting vulnerable and we are looking at your sleep.

[00:20:32] We are looking at your mental levels of energy, of exhaustion. Um, especially in this age of ai, we think, oh, everything’s much easier. Now we’ve got ai. But many companies are realizing that we have a crisis of mental exhaustion. ’cause there’s just so many more tools to learn and everything is expected to be quicker, faster, better.

[00:20:58] Um, so this course is, um, is, is a really amazing thing to put a team through, um, aimed at improving performance and and wellbeing.

[00:21:12] And is that course, does that include the management team as much as like who, who’s involved? Because the reason I say that is because I. I really think it’s important for managers if you are a sales leader and a manager, to spot those signs of burnout in people. Um, I can think of an amazing employee who works with us, and if she does listen, I’m not saying her name.

[00:21:33] She’ll know who I’m talking about. ’cause we tell her off all the time. We spot that she’s online, very, very late into her evenings, and she’s so dedicated and committed. She’s insane at what she does. We are very lucky to have someone like her within the business. But we are spotting that this is unsustainable. Um, and I do think managers, you need to be alert to that, that whilst they may be your top performers, maybe they won’t be there long term if you don’t spot the signs early.

[00:22:04] Title A.

[00:22:06] So let’s talk about some of the work you do. You share a lot of tips with big, big companies. You’ve worked with Lego, you’ve worked with General Electric, and you talk about performance enhancing habits and protocols. Could you share some of those? Practices that help people stay sharp, calm, inspired, and just try and avoid this burnout that is so evident, as you rightly say, in this very always on culture we live in.

[00:22:34] Yeah, sure. So the most effective, free, and, um, that we all can do in any given moment is our breath. So you can even do it right now, just taking a really long, slow, deep breath. Um, while we’re talking and I’m doing it now, I’ve just reminded myself, my breath’s starting to slow down. So when you are in a pitch situation, when you are doing a demo, you’re having a meeting, there are questions being.

[00:23:10] Being thrown at you, especially negotiation. The higher pressure the better when you elongate your breath and breathe deeply, ideally deep down into the belly. And there’s techniques that we, we teach people, but it really can be as simple as taking a few deep breaths. That allows you to pause, to actually listen to deeply listen to what is being shared and what is being said, and react in a way that is intelligent, emotive, intuitive.

[00:23:45] Um, and this. Is transformative for your own nervous system, which is how we lead to burnout because our capacity shrinks, um, and it, you know, and the body, you can see us getting like this. When you breathe, you naturally relax everything down. Um, so for you, but also for your performance, the number one mistake when I used to coach sales reps and you’d listen back to their calls and demos.

[00:24:13] They’re not listening. They’re not actually listening. They have a script, a feature, and they’re reeling it off. Um, you know, the, the, the prospect or customer can be revealing their deep pain and their real challenges. And the, the, I remember just hearing sales reps going, oh, awesome. Well that’s great because we’ve got just this solution that’s gonna help you.

[00:24:38] It’s like, you are not, you need to empathize. I need to say, oh my God, that sounds really stressful. I’m really sorry you’re dealing with that. We’ve actually dealt with that before and you know, so and so at, so company had this pain also, and they were really feeling like you, and, and this is how we, we solved it.

[00:25:00] This could, how does that sound? Is that interesting? Um, so yeah, the breath.

[00:25:08] It’s such a. Big topic as well. Like you say, there’s so many techniques that you can teach and uh, funnily enough, I’ve actually just started getting back into meditation, um, which for some people might sound really intimidating and overwhelming, but. Ultimately it is just about controlling the breath and bringing the mind down and the clarity that you can get off the back of that is absolutely huge. Um, so again, it’s so simple. Sometimes when we get in these moments where everything is so fast paced, it is about going back to the basics, breath focus, writing things down, working out how you’re gonna prioritize your energy. So thank you for sharing that. I think that is a. That is a really big one. And, and what stood out for me in the last part there was you talked about authenticity. Um, we’re just salespeople. We’re just normal people that feel the same as the buyers we’re selling to. And I think that the pressure sometimes can take over and people can ramble, as you rightly say, through scripts, but it is about. Being truly authentic to them and yourself, and ultimately just see each pitch or presentation as just a really nice conversation, like really understand what they’re going through.

[00:26:30] As you rightly say, empathy is absolutely a winning strategy in sales, and I think we have forgotten that a little bit. So my last question really is about protecting. Their authenticity, protecting wellbeing, especially if you think about what I’m trying to do with wise is get more women into sales. I do believe that there is this fear of fast-paced burnout, and actually if you do it correctly and well. It can be such an amazing field to work in. It’s financially very rewarding. You meet amazing people. Connection is there, and if you preserve your wellbeing in the right way, it’s extremely fulfilling and it can have a good work-life balance. But ultimately you are in control of that. So what advice would you give to really ambitious women who are either coming into the field for the first time, or maybe they’re just about to step into that leadership shoes?

[00:27:30] I think it’s a great time for women in sales, in business in general. Um, there are role models out there now.

[00:27:38] You know, there are many women like us who have been there and done that. So first of all, seek out a mentor. Mentor. Um,

[00:27:48] it doesn’t have to be a paid coach. There are many people I love to give back, and there are many people in a similar position who will gladly, um, support you and help you.

[00:28:01] So, um, don’t be afraid to pick up the phone or, you know, reach out. Um. That has helped me over my career. And, and not just to other women, but men as well, um, people that are in the shoes that you would like to walk in. I think that’s, um, that’s one of the,

[00:28:21] the best things that helped me. Um, yeah. I think e early in my career, it wasn’t modeled.

[00:28:29] I never had a female sales

[00:28:33] Leader. I never had a a,

[00:28:34] a,

[00:28:35] woman as a boss. Um, it was never modeled. And there are more now, which is good. Um, it’s still not where, where we want it to be by any stretch of the, the imagination. And it’s a real shame because I actually think that women, this is maybe gonna be controversial, women

[00:28:54] are

[00:28:54] better sales people, sales leaders than men.

[00:28:59] And that is because of one. Very important, uh, way of which the body, uh, is built. And this is intuition, that gut feeling. Um, many men have it as well, but women in general find it a little bit easier. So the gut feeling, the emotional intelligence and confidence, there are simple things as well that we can do to increase our confidence.

[00:29:29] confidence.

[00:29:30] Uh, I love affirmations. There’s, if you look at Spotify or YouTube, you can find affirmations tracks and just play them on your morning walk, play them while you’re getting ready. It goes into the subconscious mind, which is where a lot of this comes from. So, yeah, there’s so many techniques. Um, but yeah, hopefully more and more women, um, yeah.

[00:29:54] Yeah. Come into this field. Let’s get more

[00:29:56] women on board. And I think, yeah. I interviewed a, a another guest recently, Hannah. She talked about like female energy. You know, similar word to intuition. I think we make incredible sales leaders. And you know what’s funny?

[00:30:09] I said to my husband yesterday, I’ve never had a woman as a boss. Ever. And I really wonder what that would feel like. Um, but anyways, that’s, that’s, that’s my journey. That won’t be the same journey for everyone. And that’s obviously the purpose of this podcast. And, and just to finish up, before we go into quickfire, I wanted to share that the company I work for does a four day work week. And the reason I wanna share that. It’s because you can do that and be very successful as a sales professional. I think that there, I know that our company has had people on LinkedIn say, it’s ridiculous. It’s all a lie. They’re clearly working. We do not work on a Friday. If we choose to work, we choose to work, but we do not ask anything of our peers.

[00:30:57] That is the absolute number one rule. We do not ask anything if you respond to a client your prerogative, but do not be teaming, WhatsApping or asking anything of your peers. And the reason I share that at the end just to finish up is because I never thought it was possible. I never thought that I’d be able to hit these massive targets and do that in four days, and I absolutely can. I’m recording this podcast today on a Friday this morning. I worked with my coach on a Friday. I do all my appointments on a Friday and. Yeah, there absolutely can be a chance in this industry to have a work-life balance and get the type of rest you need. Today is my rest day and doing stuff like this is what gives me the energy.

[00:31:41] So thank you for sharing everything Hannah. I really advise people to look out for all the work I am pausing and doing. It’s definitely helped me, um, and I’m constantly inspired by all the work that Hannah is doing in this space. So

[00:31:55] Well, I think that’s really important that you bring that out with the four day work week, because I did wanna also bring in there that we can’t do it all, and so having, you know, being realistic like that is. Going to make it more inclusive for more women who do still, unfortunately, carry the lion’s share of the domestic load when it comes to the home and family.

[00:32:21] Um, so yeah, that is something that I’ve recently been reflecting on. I used to think that I could do it all. And now looking back on my twenties and thirties, I’m realizing. The sacrifices that were made for career. Um, so, you know, every time you say yes to something, you’re saying no to something else. And in our culture that’s quite hard because we do portray an image with social media that we, we can do.

[00:32:55] It is something I’ve said on podcasts probably a bit controversially many times I do not think that women can have it all. And I think by saying we can have it all, it’s doing us a disservice and it’s pushing us to burn out. ’cause it isn’t possible ladies, we can definitely juggle and we are queens that multitasking, but just remember it’s. Impossible to be perfect at everything. Stop striving to do that. Things will change. Motherhood will become really important in one part of your life. Then your, your career will, maybe your friends will. Things happen with your family as they get older. Just pivot and prioritize for sure. Okay, onto Quickfire.

[00:33:37] Hannah, I ask the same questions of each guest, and I do that because I think at the end of the year, after speaking to so many amazing women, I’m gonna have some really interesting, um, comments that I can build into some decks to distribute out. So the first one is, what do you think is the one trait that you think is most critical for a sales leader today?

[00:33:58] I have a feeling I know what you might bring up here, but let’s see what you say.

[00:34:03] Emotional intelligence,

[00:34:05] Okay. Do you wanna share more

[00:34:07] on

[00:34:08] that what you thought?

[00:34:09] No, I thought it might be rest.

[00:34:13] I think they come hand in hand because if you are not rested, there is no way you are in tune with your emotions and that of other people. Um, so yeah, you need to be rested to be emotionally intelligent. Um, but we are emotional creatures. We are human beings, not human doings. Um, so we need to learn to be with ourselves, understand our emotional landscape so we can help others.

[00:34:43] It’s true. So true. ’cause you can get very blinkered when you’re tired. Um, and yes, you’re right. Emotional intelligence, self-awareness, such a key trait. Um, what about you? I think you said you didn’t have a female. Manager as well. But what about a leader that you might have seen or a mentor you’ve worked with, um, that’s really inspired you?

[00:35:06] Yeah, so, um, I did not have a female mentor. For a very long time. However, there is a lady, an amazing woman called Penny Orm who is in London. She’s actually just written a incredible book, um, called The Female Sales Leader. So I highly recommend everyone check out Penny’s book.

[00:35:30] book.

[00:35:31] Um, and yeah, we worked together many years ago and have recently reconnected and she is an incredible.

[00:35:41] Leader. Very inspirational.

[00:35:43] And the book is called The Female Sales Leader, which I love. And uh, spoiler. Penny is coming on the podcast, so we’re very excited.

[00:35:52] Thank you for connecting me with Penny Hannah. ’cause she does seem insane at what she does, and this is the whole point, right? When we, when we ask these names, whoever’s listening, connect with them, follow their journey, be inspired by them because they’re doing some awesome things in this space. Okay. Finally, what about a book or something you’ve read, maybe something that’s really influenced your approach to sales leadership?

[00:36:21] So my approach to sales leadership or my approach to life, I’d say, um, the Body Keeps The Score is a book by Bessel VanDerKolk.

[00:36:32] VanDerKolk

[00:36:33] And

[00:36:34] it changed my life. Uh, it made me understand why I kept burning out. Because I was living most of my life from my mind, I’m considering this body a vessel just to get from A to B.

[00:36:49] Um, so it’s a very thought provoking but also practical book for any, for anyone, but especially those of us that are working in high pressure environments like sales.

[00:37:03] We’ll put that in the show notes as well because I said to Hannah at the beginning, my, my bookshelf is overflowing with all these great book recommendations. But again, that really wraps up so nicely, doesn’t it? About being in tune with the mind and the body and the soul. I think the work you’re doing in this space is amazing to. As you say, keep that conversation going because personally I don’t wanna see hustle culture being glorified, as you said at the beginning. I would like to see it normalized and to be talking about such important topics at which is placing wellbeing front and center, because that’s what’s gonna drive your ultimate performance. If you keep grinding and you keep pushing, you will burn out. Hannah’s been there. I’ve been close far too many times for my liking. Um, so all of these conversations help keep me, keep me honest and, and keep me focused in the right direction. So Hannah, thank you. You’ve been an amazing guest. You’re an amazing woman.

[00:38:04] You’ve achieved some awesome things, and we will continue to follow your journey. Thank you so much for being part of Wise.

[00:38:11] Well, thanks Lauren for everything that you’re doing with this podcast as well. It’s a super important topic.

[00:38:16] Topic. Thank you. Really appreciate that. I meet incredible people like you, so it makes it all the easier. Thanks a lot, Hannah.

[00:38:24] You take care.